Bitcoin casino gets double spend
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Attacking a huge network like bitcoin would be an audacious and expensive act, but there are certainly organizations with the resources to do it, e.
The massive rewards to such an attack also offset fixed costs such as writing and testing the software to carry out the attack.
This makes sense, but only for the leading crypto coin. The spooky thing that this made me realize, is that if anyone did find a vulnerability in bitcoin or any cryptocurrency is that they would have a greater incentive to only slowly leech off the system, because they will be able to siphon out much more over time than if everyone panics over security.
The weapon is no good unless it's secret. My assessment is that the greatest vulnerability in Bitcoin is its breathless supporters, who will look past the dynamics of Bitcoin in adoration of the mechanics of Bitcoin.
To that end, larger, more sophisticated enterprises banks, hedge funds, etc are likely leeching slowly off the system, propping the price up and inflating it when they can, so they can extract as much value as possible out of its correction to a value commensurate to its utility.
Every other technical vulnerability, notional or demonstrated, is at least an order of magnitude harder to exploit. I think the split you draw between people looking at Bitcoin-the-real-thing and people adoring the machinery is an excellent one.
If you look at the original paper, it's pretty clear that Bitcoin was meant to be peer-to-peer electronic cash: I don't think that was necessarily so; plenty of things start out rough and become more useful over time.
But the mechanics-adorers I've talked with seemed willfully blind to all the practical issues. We can't fix problems we refuse to see, so Bitcoin has preserved its machinery at the expense of fulfilling its vision.
In practice, Airbnb has failed at its aim of providing airbed style accommodations for conference goers.
They have succeeded wildly in providing accommodation for conference-goers. The last conference I went to many people were staying in AirBnBs and even coordinating to share them.
They succeeded by expanding the mechanism to support actual discovered user needs. Which is what Bitcoin signally failed to do.
Is bitcoin becoming a store of value really as obviously better for it than AirBnb becoming a more general accommodation provider?
If not, it's not really a fair comparison. Besides, AirBnb didnt even fail in providing accommodation for conference goers with included breakfast.
It still works perfectly in its original intended use. Airbnb is a business. It's "aim" is to grow and make money. Bitcoin was a political experiment before it was a technological one.
You don't pivot political beliefs the way you pivot a business. The technological experiment is still ongoing, but the political experiment has failed its goals.
Airbnb is a service, where bitcoin is a commodity. I don't mean to imply you are wrong. I simply mean that there may be an even more interesting parallel out there where a commodity is no longer being used in its originally intended way which may support bitcoin's evolution of purpose.
How is bitcoin a commodity? I think you give it too much credit to elevate it to that status. It's structure and behaviour much more resembles a commodity than it does any other asset class; it is basically digital gold.
The CFTC agrees and considers itself the responsible regulator. With the important distinction that it's not an economically useful commodity.
Sure, the CFTC regulated it, because their remit is one of the broadest. So you could call it a commodity by default.
But it's not like you could make jewelry or breakfast cereal from Bitcoins in the same way you could use commodities like gold or wheat.
So it's arguably more like a gambling instrument than any real commodity. Really, though, I think the closest financial match is a private currency: Fnoord 5 months ago.
Gold has a value beyond what it is worth and which aids to its value: Digital currencies can be used via computers and networks while physical currencies such as banknotes and gold requires sneakernet.
Airbnb is a service. Bitcoin is a commodity in the same way online poker chips are a commodity. How would you change the machinery?
Most people don't want digital cash for the same reasons they don't use real cash: I use technology to solve problems for people.
The few niches Bitcoin has found e. GuthL 5 months ago. Your personal opinion on cash is irrelevant to the subject. Cash has property you say you don't want.
Some people might and do want them. Just have a look at what the relationship between Germans and cash. Bitcoin has property similar to cash to many extend.
It was not technically possible before its invention and as such as it is a real intrinsect value dont ask me to quantify it. It wasn't my personal opinion.
In the US, the use of cash is below half of personal transactions and has been declining for years; most countries are similar. I personally am more like the Germans here, but I recognize that I'm an outlier.
Regardless, your point doesn't make a lot of sense, because many Germans surveyed on this say they use cash because it gives them better control over spending and more clarity as to where their money goes.
Bitcoin is in no way superior to a debit card in that regard. The value of new possibility isn't really intrinsic; you measure it through seeing if people actually use it.
With Bitcoin they mostly don't, which suggests that it is at best more useful to a small slice of people. JKCalhoun 5 months ago.
I see so many red flags with Bitcoin that is amazes me that it still has its backers. There would seem to be organizations states?
I would think this would devalue the currency and, as is so often the case in life, fuck over the little people.
Never mind the insane amount of actual energy resources needed for this virtual currency. It almost seems immoral. And with exploits like the one in this article, how can anyone continue to have confidence in it?
It feels more akin to Confederate money printed during the U. The mechanics would be the internal workings, a tamper-proof shared ledger. Think of all the possibilities!
Then it hits the real world, and suddenly what people actually do with it and its valuation is dependent on how the exchanges operate are exchanges even mentioned in the original paper?
You seem to assume that the greatest feat of Bitcoin is it's price. Yes, sure the price might be affected somewhat by how exchanges operate and media covers.
However, many people don't care too much about the monetary price, and play the long game. In the long run, the market always adjusts. In in the end, it is the same with any other commodity or currency.
Bachman, with all due respect, I would argue that the majority of people proclaiming they don't care about the price are bluffing. Perhaps even bluffing themselves.
Bitcoin's price increase has far outpaced its adoption or disruption of the financial system. Nursie 5 months ago. What game are you playing if you don't care about the price?
Do you care about the price of 1 dollar? In loaves of bread, in liters of milk, in months of rent, gigabytes of internet, square feet of land, kilowatts of electricity; in i7s and shitty steam games and iPhones.
I care about the price of 1 dollar in the labor I put in, and the goods I get out. This is what I wish for bitcoin.
I dont know if it will ever be true though. That's not an answer. The poster claimed not to care about price, but to be playing the long game.
I'm asking what the long game is? This is basically the plot of F. Scott Fitzgerald's The Diamond as Big as the Ritz, which takes it to its logical conclusion but I won't spoil it, it's a fun short read.
C7H8N4O2 5 months ago. MereInterest 5 months ago. Nah, you could short-sell Bitcoin. Take out a sell option, crash the value, buy cheap, then exercise the option.
Information is valuable, no matter which direction it predicts the market to go. An interesting thought, but in practice, trading derivatives affects the value of the underlying pretty strongly.
Whoever is selling you those puts is selling bitcoin or futures to hedge, which would drive the price down as you try to put on your position.
With options, buying deep OTM puts won't result in an immediate impact on the underlying market because they have such low delta and market makers aren't going to move a lot of spot to hedge it.
AndrewBissell 5 months ago. The problem is that if you successfully rook put sellers in this way for some ungodly amount of money, they will never be able to pay out on your claim.
You might never exercise the option, but you could probably resell the option at a far higher price. It wouldn't be immediate, but the second you put on a trade with any kind of size that far out of the money, the market makers will wise up.
That sounds like a perfect trade. So, slowly leaching is a much better idea than getting it in one shot. I would think a slow-play is significantly easier.
Where would you buy a put sell option on Bitcoin without substantial counterparty or settlement risk? I genuinely want to know. I would have bought one in November if I could have.
Even then it's not clear you'll be able to buy options on them Assuming you want to make money directly, sure.
If you want to harm a community in which the currency is widely used, the incentives are different. What kind of incentive does the attacker have to just harm a community of a distributed system?
Association with or interest in a different crypto or not currency, leading to wanting to shake faith in the target currency.
Hostility toward a community in which the target currency is particularly popular. TeMPOraL 5 months ago.
Concern over the impact Bitcoin has on global energy use? Mind you, I say this as a crypto currency outsider. That's true as long as cryptocurrency itself is seen as fringe; it's less true if cryptocurrency becomes generally accepted.
Of course, a nation-state or other actor interested in preserving the role of fiat and keeping cryptocurrency on the fringes is also a possibility. An interest in a competing financial system.
Just to say they did it. Tax is a pretty good motivator for governments. Making GPU prices great again. Trolling, because the internetz.
But what if someone else also finds the vulnerability? You can't be sure they'll also act slowly. It's like a game theory dilemma. Even finding a single double spend attack that only double-spends 1 satoshi would be enough to destroy bitcoin.
No it would not. Finding a BTC double spend attack vector would be like finding a 0-day: Microsoft, Android, Firefox, Electron and Chrome aren't currencies.
Can you say the same for a cryptocurrency? Jommi 5 months ago. Ygg2 5 months ago. What is the value of currency you can legally print on any printer?
So very relevant are: The second you make are the first transaction you need fork and start mining hard.
It still takes time to get the network to follow you. Double spend is a very specific heist. Tricks like waiting for extra confirmations, requiring identification before accepting payment, etc, are easy remediations.
You're over reducing things to the point where they don't make sense anymore lol First of all, the value of a currency that could be printer on any printer might not actually be even 0.
Secondly, cryptocurrencies do not operate in vacuum. Its not as simple as "printing yourself money". Right, it could possibly be negative.
Second, if I went to a store spent dollars and those dollars magically reappeared in my hand, didn't I create money out of nothing and reduce dollar value?
Even if I never cloned any money I reduce the expectations of future stores that their money won't magically disappear. And yes, I am aware banks do this, but they are regulated and when they abuse it, you get a financial crisis.
So it's ok if your currency becomes unreliable for many hours? It would immediately negate the trust of what happened during that period of time, affecting the trust of any balance in participating addresses.
Bitcoin hasn't been useful as a currency for a long time. I don't think that's a good measure for determining how an event might affect bitcoin price.
Bitcoin averages something on the order of , transactions per day. It's useful to someone. That's definitely not proof of real economic utility. How many bets happen in Las Vegas every day?
But economically, they're negative-sum events exploiting cognitive weaknesses. They are not negative sum, because they provide entertainment.
Also, all systems that pay taxes are negative sum as well! Utility is not measured in money. Entertainment can also have negative value.
That's what the parent meant: All entertainment is someone exploiting your chemistry. Thats the whole point. They mainly provide addiction.
Go to a casino sometime and look around. Do those people look like they're entertained? The slot machine zombies barely look human anymore.
You're also wrong about taxes. Consider my local taqueria. They buy raw materials and create value by making ready-to-eat food just when people are hungry.
They receive cash in exchange, a portion of which they pay in taxes to fund the infrastructure their business depends upon.
That is positive sum for all participants. It has to be. If taxes tipped it into the negative sum category, they'd eventually close down.
I dont think you've followed through on that model of yours. If you buy 50 dollars of taco materials, then taco materials seller makes likes than 50 dollars ,because the state will charge a tax on him.
If he didnt sell 50 dollars worth of raw materials, he would have 50 dollars of raw materials to consume, instead of less than 50 dollars.
On the other side, making the taco, you have the same issue: You earn less than dollars, and someone else lost dollars. Repeat the proces ad-infinitum and your holdings go to 0.
This makes no sense at all, and is not how business works. Most economic activity is positive sum. When I'm hungry and on the go, a taco is more valuable to me than raw taco materials, so I pay more for it.
Value has been created. The taqueria owner takes money in, pays their expenses, and is left with a profit. Taxes are paid out of that profit, and you could just as well model it as another kind of expense, a societal infrastructure fee.
Many countries use value creation as an explicit taxation model: This is an unnecessary long argumentation. Gambling is not negative sum because they provider entertainment that has utility.
That is not in fact what I am using to classify gambling as negative-sum. It is also negative-sum in cash terms, but I'm speaking of value.
I understand you are claiming the entertainment value outweighs the harm of exploitation and addiction. JackFr 5 months ago. Expected value is not the only thing to consider.
An awful lot of casino gambling involves series of small stakes bets on low payout options which don't even meaningfully increase upside portfolio variance over time after the house edge has been taken out.
Might still be rational from a utilitarian perspective if one really, really enjoys card games of course, but not from a portfolio allocation perspective.
Apart from weird edge cases where an actor needs to double their money overnight to return to solvency in order to have a chance of benefiting from an income stream in future, there aren't many cases where it makes sense from a portfolio allocation basis given the existence of non-negative expectation bets in other markets with a wide range of possible variances.
The insurance and investment management industries are built on the principle that economic rationality works in exactly the opposite way to gambling: Use as a currency was the point I was addressing.
Bitcoin has been a working network for 9 years with ,, plus transactions. It's a useful currency. Googling around I find a post that gives a lower bound for number of debit card transactions in the USA alone as 47 billions for alone.
That's not counting the rest of the world and the other exchange media like cash or bank transfers.
I mean thing about it, it's one single transaction for every person in the USA over the course of 9 years. Alternatively it's less one transaction per year for the entire population of Canada.
Amazon alone probably handles more transactions over the course of a couple of weeks. Gambling has way more transactions. LIBOR options have more transactions.
Any actively traded stock has more transactions. None of those things are currency. Even prominent Bitcoin advocates agree it's not effective as a currency: Frondo 5 months ago.
I wonder how many minutes it'd take for cash to manage million transactions. Visa does per second. And Visa can do 7x that in a minute.
I have a shift card, bought tacobell with bitcoin. That's not buying anything with Bitcoin. You are converting your Bitcoin to USD and then purchasing using the traditional, centrally controlled financial system.
And that's not even considering the transactions fees it costs to get the Bitcoin to your account. Then there are the transaction fees for using the card, which coinbase says is free "for now".
That's like saying you can't buy anything with a VISA. Sure, transactions are intermediated through some consensus denomination for exchange.
He still lost bitcoin and gained tacos. Just as someone else might lose a portion of a credit balance and gain tacos. You get just as full either way.
You see, I lost a portion of my USD balance and gained a beer. If you insist that the guy paid his beer with USD, it is going to be very difficult to discuss about anything as the meanings of the concepts are so twisted.
It is quite obvious that using a credit card that then accepts BTCfrom you does not mean that you use BTC to pay for anything but your credit card bill.
It's more like saying you can't buy anything with gold. Credit and debit cards are just a way of shifting dollars around.
Bitcoin is more a commodity than a currency. Yes, you can convert gold or oil to dollars and buy things, but you can't walk into a store and give them some gold flake or a quart of Texas crude in exchange for a candy bar.
We can pretend it's just a balance of dollars, even though it technically isn't, because it makes conversations easier, and in practical fact that's how it appears to work.
But that's just a shorthand. We can use the same shorthand to say someone bought something with bitcoin.
There's no reason to demand perfect technical precision with bitcoin and no similar pedantic precision with lines of credit.
Here the guy has done that. He walked in with bitcoin and walked out with tacos. When you say that's not really what happened, it feels like a no true scotsman response.
He gave them dollars, not a quart of crude. That he might have a side deal with somebody else to trade beanie babies for dollars does not make beanie babies a currency.
Bitcoin is not a currency. Plenty of other things are true currencies, so there's no fallacy here.
Was there an individual bitcoin transaction for each purchase? No, he just paid his credit card bill with bitcoin. Whatever the receipt says is what you paid with; those receipts are definitely in USD.
Sure you could also pay your groceries with lead dispensed from a gun. But that's currently nowhere near broad addoption. It just doesn't meet the definition of "currency", though it will virtually always be current.
IncRnd 5 months ago. Shift isn't sustainable in it's current form. They are temporarily not charging for domestic transactions. Since there is a cost for those transactions, there will eventually be a fee per transaction.
EpicEng 5 months ago. This has already happened multiple times to BTC and it's still around. BTC is not a currency; that train left long ago.
I dont think it has? You don't think what has? There have been double spend attacks against BTC. Not exactly a double spend, but billions BTC being printed out of thin air: It's happened quite a few times after that.
Consider the merchants who have been known to use fewer than the standard of confirmations and what it takes to reverse or reuse those charges.
For example, here is a blog post on one way to do this: If you want to search you will find that there are scripts to automate this type of action by constructing bitcoin transactions.
If Visa or SEPA got hacked over 12 hours and then fixed the root cause, would you stop using credit cards or bank transfers altogether?
Credit Card companies and banks can reverse the transactions, so long as they keep track of things in batches, have strong backup system for their ledgers.
If a bank is critically hit so bad funds become impossible to correctly attribute to people Fight Club type unrealistic scenario , at least in the US FDIC would probably come in to play.
The bank might even have to be treated as a failed bank. People wouldn't stop using banks, but they would stop using that bank. I'd really like to live in a world where that's true, but I don't see Equifax going anywhere.
PayPal does a form of this as well, except it's the central system and not a rogue actor that locks your money away.
Well informed users avoid PayPal, but there appear to be many more uninformed users. XorNot 5 months ago.
Neither of those things "are money" and they're all highly reversible. A major hack against Visa would absolutely tank the value of Visa the company however, and if people who believed they were paid weren't made whole somehow then it would also tank the acceptance of Visa.
My credit card gets stolen yearly. Sure, they can reverse the charges but changing the number everywhere is annoying.. Don't underestimate how long it takes to deploy a fix to such a vulnerability.
Any change in consensus which this would be is a hard fork, and deploying it without carefully coordinating months in advance is certain to cause chaos.
Why do you think a double-spend attack would be easy to figure out? It could rely on start of the art crypto attacks which aren't known to the general public, or some very obscure bug which has slipped past thousands of eyeballs.
You won't really be able to process tx that low, you'll need to pay a tx fee proprtionate to the number of bytes. It takes more than 1 byte to describe one satoshi, so you can't get your tx to propagate.
Theoretically the attacker could also be picking up 0-fee transactions, but my intent was to really say this: Would even a single counterfeiter be enough to destroy a new fiat currency, or is your thesis specific to crypto?
What about state level actors, say the NSA, that consider bitcoin supplanting the US dollar as the standard medium of international currency exchange a huge threat to the world economy?
Not only that but they can pass laws that allow them to forcibly seize the fattest wallets. Which ultimately ensure's that the Government can, behind the scenes, kick the scaffolding out from beneath us.
All I see right now is state level actors experimenting in this regard, because seriously who single handedly has the computation power to take control of these cryptocurrency's if its not the government or a company like Google?
JumpCrisscross 5 months ago. Plain and simple network effects. The RMB is not even fully convertible, it is the opposite of liquid.
The US dollar is useful to countries like china is because the US government acts as a debtor of last resort, allowing them to park surpluses in treasuries.
If Chinese consumption eclipses America's and their economy rebalances, they will have lots of Chinese consumers buying goods with renmimbi, leaving sellers offshore with boatloads of the currency to find investments for.
I consider this to be a moderate risk, and not one which would supplant the U. It promises huge profits to banks, which is why they're salivating over it.
The Chinese government is not interested in filling this same role, even if now anemic Chinese consumption somehow picks up, they will probably still want to maintain absolute control over the exchange rate.
I agree that the renminbi is not presently a threat. Just that it has the potential of becoming one. That potential flows from the potential of China's consumers.
A native base of consumers Bitcoin lacks. My point is that if the renminbi is a long shot for challenging the dollar's hegemony, Bitcoin is out past Pluto.
How is the government going to forcibly size a wallet? Are you suggesting they can break the crypto, or that they will compel people to divulge their keys?
That doesn't let them seize all the wallets. You are not wrong to argue that state level actors are a serious threat.
But fortunately, these state actors seem to have no interest in attacking crypto. It seems like the governments that matters IE the 1st world, are perfectly happy to allow people to have access to a censorship resistant method of financial transactions.
This makes a certain amount of sense. The governments of the 1st world claim to care a lot about freedom.
And it seems that they are getting us have it. DmenshunlAnlsis 5 months ago. Cash is hard to trace, a Bitcoin is easy to trace for something like the NSA.
Besides, Bitcoin is as likely to become a dominant currency as shells or promises. Well, a couple of the cryptocirrencies out there have privacy baked in, such Monero.
I don't see any of these privacy coins being banned yet, so But anyways that is besides the point.
The argument that the OP was making was that governments are areal threat to crypto. And MY point was that these governments are NOT actually attacking cryoptocurrencies so I guess things are going to work out fine for cryptocurrencies.
And MY point is that extrapolating too much from minimal data is unwise. Let a hundred flowers bloom and a hundred schools of thought contend EGreg 5 months ago.
Short bitcoin cash 2. Only if you make it public. You can profit from undermining the market. My conclusion is that since this is true, the real thing maintaining the system is mutual cooperation of sufficient mining interest.
When you look at the theoretical division of hashpower in btc, it looks too stable over generations of hardware. Any non-colluding ecosystem should have centralized.
I conclude btc is a collusion system. So why the pow? Is this stabilizing the actors somehow? It seems like an explicitly managed network would be no less centralized, way more efficient, and way more user friendly.
There are circumstances where a merchant is more vulnerable. An unattended coin change machine at a laundromat, for instance, would be the worst case scenario for the merchant.
The attacker loses nothing for failed attempts presuming the machine is not taking any profit from each "sale" , takes the gains on the occasional successful attempt, and is not likely to get caught for committing fraud as by the time the laundromat operator is aware anything happened the thief is long gone.
Of course, countering this is the likelihood that blockchain monitoring would have identified the numerous double spend attempts and thus the laundromat operator can prevent even this from occurring.
The Finney attack also has costs that make it less of a threat than it would seem. Holding a block costs about a dollar a second.
Again, the merchant would know eventually that the double spend had occurred measured in seconds, if monitoring the blockchain , so this doesn't work well in circumstances where the thief risks getting caught.
So the prevention for this is to simply not make large value transactions e. If everyone could spend the same Bitcoin twice, then the whole system would collapse because Bitcoins would not be scarce.
Thank you for your interest in this question. Because it has attracted low-quality or spam answers that had to be removed, posting an answer now requires 10 reputation on this site the association bonus does not count.
Would you like to answer one of these unanswered questions instead? Home Questions Tags Users Unanswered. What is a double spend?
Geremia 2, 1 20 Haribo 6, 10 32 There are a couple main ways to perform a double spend: Send two conflicting transactions in rapid succession into the Bitcoin network.
This is called a race attack. Pre-mine one transaction into a block and spend the same coins before releasing the block to invalidate that transaction.
This is called a Finney attack. This answer could be improved by explaining that coins can only be spent once and how the double spend attack could be detrimental to the recipient.